Hi,

I have a facelift 2000 MV6

Got in the car this morning and on starting it up, it nearly didn't make it as it's not been started for a week and it sounded a little weak for a few seconds. Once started all the lights didn't go off. I have acquired myself a TC light, an ABS light, A seatbelt/airbag light and an Immobiliser light. I turned off the stereo and found the windows were reluctant to open at first.

I stuck it in Auto and it was really sluggish, all the dials stayed at 0. I drove a long for a few miles and every so often the dials would leap into life and give me an accurate reading and then they would revert back to 0 again.

I didn't go far from home and on the return journey I tried Sports option manual gear change and the car was infinitely more responsive the way it would normally feel, I still had all the same problems, lights on the dash flashing on and off intermittently and dials jumping into life occasionaly.

What on earth is going on?

Any help would be really appreciated, there is no way I can handle a large bill right now, could this just be something electrical that is loose?

Cheers

You may have a faulty or partially-discharged battery... otherwise it is difficult to see how one fault could cause all these problems. Potentially also ECU connection problems, if you are happy the battery is OK then try checking the ECU connector, but on balance I would go for a low battery or bad/corroded battery connections (mainly earth!) etc.

My honest opinion, the Alternator is not charging.

Can you measure the battery voltage with the engine running......give it soem revs also?

Markjay wrote on 10. Dec 2006 at 14:26:

You may have a faulty or partially-discharged battery... otherwise it is difficult to see how one fault could cause all these problems. Potentially also ECU connection problems, if you are happy the battery is OK then try checking the ECU connector, but on balance I would go for a low battery or bad/corroded battery connections (mainly earth!) etc.

Markjay, its classic low/high volts, all the ECU's will report a supply voltage error and chuck a light on.

Marks DTM Calib wrote on 10. Dec 2006 at 14:37:

Markjay wrote on 10. Dec 2006 at 14:26: You may have a faulty or partially-discharged battery... otherwise it is difficult to see how one fault could cause all these problems. Potentially also ECU connection problems, if you are happy the battery is OK then try checking the ECU connector, but on balance I would go for a low battery or bad/corroded battery connections (mainly earth!) etc. Markjay, its classic low/high volts, all the ECU's will report a supply voltage error and chuck a light on.

I see.... makes sense.

Hi guys, I'm no car expert at all so unfortunately I've got very few tools to check much at all other than visible problems. The one thing I do know though is that when I bought the car in September it had a receipt for a new alternator dated May this year, and a new battery dated July this year in amongst it's paperwork.

Oh yes and there is one other light on the computer display which is an exclamation mark in a circle/snow flake.

randomspam wrote on 10. Dec 2006 at 14:42:

...Oh yes and there is one other light on the computer display which is an exclamation mark in a circle/snow flake.

That's probably the transmission fault light, but as siad you can't possibly have so many things going wrong at the same time, so check the voltage on the battery with the engine running (a multi-tester costs £5-£10 from most car accessories shops or the likes of Maplin etc)

Ok thanks markjay and markstdm, I shall buy one tomorrow and do that.

WOuld this be sufficent?
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=25414&criteria=multimeter&doy=10m12

Do I simply hook it up to the +/- of the battery whilst the engine is off and take a reading and then try it when the engine is on as well? What should I be expecting to see?

randomspam wrote on 10. Dec 2006 at 15:04:

Ok thanks markjay and markstdm, I shall buy one tomorrow and do that. Do I simply hook it up to the +/- of the battery whilst the engine is off and take a reading and then try it when the engine is on as well?

Yes, but make sure that the dial on the tester is set to 'DC V' and not to AC or Resistance (the 'Omega' sign). The digital testers should be autonmatic, but analogue ones may also have a 'range' festure - so you should be within the 14V range, i.e. 5V-20V etc. Also, some testers have a socket for 'com', ignore that for the V testing. And read the instructions...

randomspam wrote on 10. Dec 2006 at 15:04:

Ok thanks markjay and markstdm, I shall buy one tomorrow and do that. WOuld this be sufficent? http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=25414&criteria=multimeter&doy=10m12 Do I simply hook it up to the +/- of the battery whilst the engine is off and take a reading and then try it when the engine is on as well?

OK, saw the picture, it should be on 'DC V 30' (2 o’clock on the dial)

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=99065&criteria=multimeter&doy=10m12

this one would be better then?

randomspam wrote on 10. Dec 2006 at 15:11:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=99065&criteria=multimeter&doy=10m12 this one would be better then?

The digital ones are easier to read (though it does not necessarily mean they are more accurate), But as all you need out of it is a two-minute voltage test, it doesn’t really matter which one you get… You can try just borrowing one from a friend.

thanks markjay, you wont believe this though

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1165764763/0

separate thread for a separate issue.

Its worth getting a tester anyway for general use anyway so it wont be a car only purchase....they can be used for checking fuses, christmas tree bulbs, batteries etc....

Marks DTM Calib wrote on 10. Dec 2006 at 16:02:

Its worth getting a tester anyway for general use anyway so it wont be a car only purchase....they can be used for checking fuses, christmas tree bulbs, batteries etc....

Quite... I have a mini digital multi-tester which I bought 15 years ago - they cost an arm and a leg then as they were new - served me well over the years and still does - anything from checking the voltage of Lithium on-board PC batteries to testing fuses etc - no home or car should be without one!

ok just done this with a friend, hopefully it was right he had a manual multimeter, we set it to DC and got a reading of 27.3 with the car off and it rose to 37.9 with the engine running.

Does this sound right or wrong?

randomspam wrote on 12. Dec 2006 at 21:42:

ok just done this with a friend, hopefully it was right he had a manual multimeter, we set it to DC and got a reading of 27.3 with the car off and it rose to 37.9 with the engine running. Does this sound right or wrong?

Bloody Hell  :o

TheBoy wrote on 12. Dec 2006 at 21:47:

randomspam wrote on 12. Dec 2006 at 21:42: ok just done this with a friend, hopefully it was right he had a manual multimeter, we set it to DC and got a reading of 27.3 with the car off and it rose to 37.9 with the engine running. Does this sound right or wrong? Bloody Hell  :o

Actually, on reflection, I reckon you may have read the wrong scale....   ...what are the other possibilities...?

really? oh nuts, what might I have done wrong?

Was it an analogue meter, ie one with a needle?  If so, probably wrong scale (there are usually more than one scale on these - eg 1 - 30v, and 1 - 15v etc...)  A photo of meter may help ;)

yes it was analogue, it looked a lot like this

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=37279&criteria=multimeter&doy=12m12

That one is digital....

If your not sure on doing the test yourself try getting it to a tyre battery place they tend to do the tests for free, although I would definately try STS if you do as I had mine done there and it was free :y

Where abouts are you?

sorry, i'm being a bit thick, it was digital, I was thinking of about the main dial control being analogue rather than just buttons to press. So it is exactly the same as the one in the pic I last posted.

Can someone tell me what kind of readings should I be expecting to see if it's knackered/partially discharged.

With the meter set to DC Volts you should get 12. something (.6 to .9?) with engine off and up to 14 with it running. There should be a common connector on the meter and one marked volts and you use these two for the leads. There may be one for high current (10amps for example) that you don't want to use for voltage, it will just blow the fuse.

With those reading either the meter is not set correctly, it's faulty or the battery has had it. The highest I've ever seen is 17volts on a car when the voltage regulator failed. The wipers were somewhat quick and the lights rather bright.

Check the meter on a torch battery or something to be certain that it's working properly.

hi, quick update, just tried friends multimeter on DC 20v on a 1.5v battery and it came up as 0.02v, tried again on several other 1.5v batteries and it did the same. Tried on the car and it came up as 0.21 and 0.32 so we've come to the conclusion that the multimeter is dodgy, he has told me it did catch fire at one point previously  ::)

I'll buy a brand new one tomorrow  ;)

randomspam wrote on 15. Dec 2006 at 22:14:

I'll buy a brand new one tomorrow  ;)

Good move  :)

randomspam wrote on 15. Dec 2006 at 22:14:

hi, quick update, just tried friends multimeter on DC 20v on a 1.5v battery and it came up as 0.02v, tried again on several other 1.5v batteries and it did the same. Tried on the car and it came up as 0.21 and 0.32 so we've come to the conclusion that the multimeter is dodgy, he has told me it did catch fire at one point previously  ::) I'll buy a brand new one tomorrow  ;)

Yes, that meter is Donald Duck'd.

right, finally got hold of one, started the engine and measured 18.10 at first and then 18.5 the next 3 tries.

The lights don't seem really bright and the wipers don't seem that quick to be honest.

I drove it on sunday and a curious thing happened, I drop the electric windows and once down they completely stuck there, no response at all. I had to pull over and start the car again and then they worked.

Ok what now!?

18v  :o

Alternator's regulator is donald duck'd. Thread in Maintenence Guides on repair.  Possibly damaged other stuff, hopefully nothing electronic. Likely to have killed the battery though.

What does battery read without engine running?

oh dear :( weird considering the alternator was apparently replaced this year.

Without the car on the battery reads as 12.51

I've had a look on the Repairing the Alternator guide but it doesn't mention where it is or how to get to it, if this beyond a completely average person and his dad, I'd definitely need step by step instructions, then maybe i'll have to take it into a garage :(

Right, to get to the alternator idealy you need to strip the inlet trunking out and pop the aux belt off (the cambelt DVD covers this nicely). Its not to hard!

Then its two bolts and the alterntor will pop off its mounts, then detach the large wire (13mm nut) and the small wire (8mm nut) and the alternator is then sat in your hands ready to work on.

There is a guy selling new regulators for the Omega alternator (which is the bit that is goosed!) for about a tenner.

hmmm not convinced on this, i don't know what inlet trunking or an aux belt is, although I do have the DVD you refer too.

Who and where is this guy selling regulators? Are you saying my alternator should be fine and that the regulator probably wouldn't have been replaced with the alternator earlier this year?

The alternator is screwed to the rear of the alternator and should have been repalced as part of the recon....

The guy selling them is here:

Alternator Bits

As a quick question......if, with the engine running, you turn the headlights, heated seats (if fitted) heated screen etc on, do the warning lights go out..........

Hi,

I see this guy also sells Alternator rectifiers, I don't need one of those as well do I? I tried it with all the electrics on and although there did seem to be a reduction in things playing up they did continue to play up. There is a noticable change in things like audio volume increasing/decreasing and air-con fan strength increasing and decreasing that goes with the needles dropping or kicking in to life.

I've just watched the stripping down section of the dvd and there is no mention of the phrase inlet trunking or aux belt so i've got no idea which bits of the car they are, any ideas? I've got very few of the tools shown in the video as well so maybe i'd better just stick it into the garage.

Where are you?

I'm in London, Plumstead, SE18, does anyone know of a reputable mechanic in the SE area?

Not personaly, if you were closer to me I would have done it for you....

Very kind of you to offer Marks DTM Calib but sadly Nottingham is indeed a fair trek, if I just knew what the each bit was in the engine bay then I'd be really keen to try it myself as I really do want to learn how to maintain the car myself. From changing the oil and coolant to  more difficult stuff like this, I hate not having a clue but I don't have a driveway or a garage or the tools or a knowledgable friend to steer me in the right direction. This forum is great of course but posting repeatedly just doesn't cut it when you need instant answers I'm sure everyone would agree.

I need a starting point though and as brilliant as the DVD obviously is it's still a step to far on for me, I need a big picture and some labels :)

The two items to remove are the inlet and aux belt.

The inlelt is the large lack set of trumpets that is removed first from between the engine and radiator in the DVD.

The aux belt is the item removed usinga 15mm spanner, its the first belt removed that runs around the 6 pulley wheels on the front of the engine.

randomspam wrote on 20. Dec 2006 at 12:35:

...Are you saying my alternator should be fine and that the regulator probably wouldn't have been replaced with the alternator earlier this year?

If the unit you had installed is a refurbished one, then it would have been fitted with new regulator, problem is that some firms get the cheapest parts they can rather the use quality parts from reputable manufacturers.

The voltage regulator is essentially a simple device, but when used in an engine it is subject to extreme temperatures, vibration, and water ingress so a cheapo one can play up and might not last as long as it should.

And, just for completeness, the standard Bosch part number for the regulator is:

1 197 311 214

Markjay wrote on 26. Dec 2006 at 16:54:

If the unit you had installed is a refurbished one, then it would have been fitted with new regulator, problem is that some firms get the cheapest parts they can rather the use quality parts from reputable manufacturers.

Unfortunately thats not always the case these days, its al to common for some to simply replace the faulty parts, clean them up and sell them on. Reality is that teh regulators are pretty bomb proof, its the bearings that tend to go noisey....

If you have the reciept for the original work it might be worth persuing a warranty claim.

Marks DTM Calib wrote on 26. Dec 2006 at 16:59:

Markjay wrote on 26. Dec 2006 at 16:54: If the unit you had installed is a refurbished one, then it would have been fitted with new regulator, problem is that some firms get the cheapest parts they can rather the use quality parts from reputable manufacturers. Unfortunately thats not always the case these days, its al to common for some to simply replace the faulty parts, clean them up and sell them on. Reality is that teh regulators are pretty bomb proof, its the bearings that tend to go noisey.... If you have the reciept for the original work it might be worth persuing a warranty claim.

Mark, 'refurbished' usually means unit cleaned and re-greased with a touch of graphite grease, the bearing replaced, regulator replaced, coils tested and repaired if broken, then unit tested to manufacturer’s specifications.

Simply replacing a bearing means the unit has been repaired, but such unit should not be sold as ‘refurbished’.

However the problem with refurbishing that that many firms throw-away the original Bosch/Lucas/Magneti Marelli etc regulator – which may be perfectly good – and replace it with a cheap east-European unit thus actually degrading the long-term reliability of the alternator.

The warranty claim might be in order though....

as it happens I do actually have the receipt for the alternator and it says it's guaranteed for 2 years BUT the work was done up on the outskirts of Coventry where I bought the car from so cost of travel/time cancels it out I reckon, plus I have to drive 150 miles with semi working speedo/fuel gauge/ABS/TC.

In my experience with the Vectras and with the symptoms you describe it does sound as others have said already as though the alternator is gone - if it's overcharging it will drain the cells in the battery of liquid and fry the battery and can also melt parts of the wiring loom.

Better fixed asap due to the damage that can be caused - on my 1st Vectra when it happened it ended up costing over £300 to repair as the main engine wiring loom had melted and the battery had dried up.

right, i've watched the DVD 3 times in a row now, I'm still not convinced I should do it myself but questions....

1) Do i have to remove the plenums(?) to be able to access the alternator or can I just start at removing the mass air flow tubes part as shown in the DVD?

2) The alternator is bottom left in the engine bay isn't it, just underneath the other furthest left wheel holding the aux belt?

3) Once I can get to it how do I remove the alternator?

interestingly I've just driven the car back from work this morning, only 15 miles, a 30 min journey. The issue had completely dissapeared and the car behaved exactly as it should. The one thing I did think of was that it is much warmer this morning than it was last night and it has been for the last 10 days or so since the issue began to appear.

Obviously the problem hasn't gone away but could it be brought on my the cold?

randomspam wrote on 27. Dec 2006 at 02:03:

right, i've watched the DVD 3 times in a row now, I'm still not convinced I should do it myself but questions.... 1) Do i have to remove the plenums(?) to be able to access the alternator or can I just start at removing the mass air flow tubes part as shown in the DVD? 2) The alternator is bottom left in the engine bay isn't it, just underneath the other furthest left wheel holding the aux belt? 3) Once I can get to it how do I remove the alternator?

1) do you have the extended 'droop snoop' plenum, or the shorter one that ends at cambelt cover? If later, you won't need to remove. If extended, I would have though you still wouldn't need to remove, but may dive a bit more room (ie, try with it in place, and remove if it gets in way).

2) looking from front, alternator is bottom left pulley.

3) Soz, don't know...

latest update in the saga is I tried to drive it to work this evening all appeared peachy as it was this morning. 10 mins in and I got stuck behind some stationary traffic and my headlights switched off and wouldn't come back on then the whole console dimmed until it was unreadable. The engine was still running though, I managed to pull into a sideroad straightaway. Greenflag picked me up and it's sitting outside the house undrivable.

The mechanic put his multimeter on the battery and once he'd given it a charge from his truck we started the engine and watched the battery voltage steadily drop until the car stalled and refused to start again.

So the battery is not being charged by the alternator at all now, could it be something else other than the regulator? If the regulator failed completely surely I would be getting varying ammounts of power rather than 0 that i'm getting now. Could it actually be an electrical fault somewhere, the mechanic thought it might be.

If only I knew a decent garage or auto electrician :(

Sorry my friend but it sounds very much like the Alternator.
First check all the main fuses in under bonnet compartment and all the connections at Alternator.
Doubtfull, but have you tried another battery?
Regards Bernard , Auto-electrician

You initially had very high voltage readings on the battery with the engine running.

I can’t think of an ‘electrical fault’ that will increase the voltage other than Voltage Regulator fault, so in my view this is almost certainly an alternator fault.

As you kept driving the car, there is no telling what consequential electrical damage has since been caused by the high voltage… so at this point everything is possible, including one or more additional ‘electrical faults’.

But I still think that the original problem is the alternator. It will have to come off….

Bernard wrote on 28. Dec 2006 at 00:55:

Sorry my friend but it sounds very much like the Alternator. First check all the main fuses in under bonnet compartment and all the connections at Alternator. Doubtfull, but have you tried another battery? Regards Bernard , Auto-electrician

Hello Bernard, and welcome to the forum - so have you finally given-up on V X O N...?  ;D

No m8 , just like to Help out when possible :y

You must bite the bullet and replace the alternator and battery.

No disrespect intended here, but at present you do not have the experience, tools or space to do this job!  Get to an auto electrician or better still, find one that will come to you.

The alt. will be about £150 ish and an hours labour.  Get the battery replaced too, as it's been repeatedly overcharged and flattened, something lead-acid batteries cannot tolerate for long.

As has been said before, you must do it soon or you could cause damage to the more delicate electrical components.

Please keep us posted and good luck!

randomspam wrote on 28. Dec 2006 at 00:41:

latest update in the saga is I tried to drive it to work this evening all appeared peachy as it was this morning. 10 mins in and I got stuck behind some stationary traffic and my headlights switched off and wouldn't come back on then the whole console dimmed until it was unreadable. The engine was still running though, I managed to pull into a sideroad straightaway. Greenflag picked me up and it's sitting outside the house undrivable. The mechanic put his multimeter on the battery and once he'd given it a charge from his truck we started the engine and watched the battery voltage steadily drop until the car stalled and refused to start again. So the battery is not being charged by the alternator at all now, could it be something else other than the regulator? If the regulator failed completely surely I would be getting varying ammounts of power rather than 0 that i'm getting now. Could it actually be an electrical fault somewhere, the mechanic thought it might be. If only I knew a decent garage or auto electrician :(

I think it had been said earlier in this thread that you shouldn't really be driving it in this condition.  I would say you're knackered alternator has killed the battery now as well. Hopefully, it has not done further damage to anything...

It's quite alright guys, no offence taken, I've been very reluctant to drive the car at all and it's been a total of 4 times since the fault occurred an only whenever it's been an absolute neccessity, starting work at 11pm boxing day anyone?  :( You may say that is 4 times too many but with it appearing to drive correctly I took the chance.

I was hoping to get it dealt with this weekend anyway I was just trying to arm myself with as much info as possible from here before yesterdays issue happened, I had decided it was beyond me already.

I'll let you know what happens.

Cheers

Ok, Masterfit have given me a rough quote over the phone - approx £260 and a mobile mechanic is coming to see the car on saturday.  Both he and Vauxhall wanted to know which alternator it is, apparently there are different ones? Which one would a 2000 3.0 MV6 have and how much would should it cost?

Just as a side note I was reading honestjohn and I see there was a TSB in 2001 for voltage spikes from the alternator http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?p_make=VAU&h_make=VAU&p_model=%20437


Quote:

June 2000 recall of V6 models due to crankshaft fault. 2001: TSB about voltage spikes from the alternator damaging the camshaft sensor. This is prevented by unpicking the wiring loom and re-routing the cam and crankshaft sensor cables together around the front of the airbox, keeping them away from the alternator.

From what I've since read about the Crankshaft Angle Sensor on http://www.topbuzz.co.uk/info/crankshaft_sensor/crankshaft_sensor.htm
it sounds very similar


Quote:

How do I know if a CAS has malfunctioned? As previously explained, the CAS is vital for the performance of the engine. It supplies a signal back to the ECU so it can calculate ignition timing and the correct fuelling. If the CAS is sending back incorrect data, the performance of the engine decreases significantly, even stop it from working. However, to overcome this problem, the EMU can use a data map within its memory (which was set by the manufactures) which use some default values to regain correct fuelling and ignition. But because this data is static and not true live data coming from a CAS, the performance isn't at its optimum. What this means is that the car may feel sluggish, but the car will still work. Also the ECU warning light will be illuminated on dash.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

On the 2.5/3.0 v6, a knackered crank sensor means the car has a trip on the back of a breakdown lorry. No limp mode for this sensor.

Well technically that's what it just had :D but fair enough

Does anyone know what alternator I need and what it should cost as a part only?

Barking up the wrong tree.....I think your in the wrong forest..

Statement number one is a right load of......4 pots maybe but, not V6's

Number 2 is also wrong, on the V6 no crank angle signal = no engine run.

Re your problem....you have a faulty alternator.....fix the obvious fault first!

I suspect its gone to the next stage of failure now and the reg has gone open crcuit (it was short circuit and hence the high voltage!).

Was the alternator replaced by a Vaux dealer,?

just repeating what I read, seemed to make sense.

no sadly not it was replaced in May this year by a local garage in coventry, the parts and work are guaranteed for 12 months but I'm in London so I can't see how I can make any kind of claim as they'll want to see the car.

£235 for replacement alternator from WJ King Masterfit in Woolwich last week, all is fine, battery appears to have survived, touch wood.

Thanks for the help.

Glad its sorted, shame about the cost though :(