My son got stopped last night at 03:30 for speeding in Felpham West Sussex.44 mph in a 30 mph limit.Ok he may have been speeding but as the officer told him that he had been following him for a mile and half, which my son did not notice which find hard to believe .
On the ticket he emailed me it states location,which i take as where he was stopped i.e road,street anyway the location stated Littlehampton.On Town it states Bognor.
Right at 03:30 he was in a town called Felpham which is 3 miles from Bognor and 5 miles from Littlehampton.
Littlehampton and Bognor are area's not roads and Felpham where he was stopped is a town in the middle of both towns.The road where he was stopped is a named road with plenty of roads coming off this main road,So the police can not say the road is un-named or state junction.

What i want to know is should he go the court route as there is no mention of road names only near by towns on the ticket and as with the lack of lamp posts and speed signs(nearest is 2 mile away) .The road goes from 40mph to 30mph then to 50mph
What do you think as i think the officer filled in the ticket wrong with lack of exact location.

Get freebie legal advice mate - think you may have a good chance with this one :y

I agree, could be a case. As far as I'm aware the details are supposed to be very accurate for a prosecution.

Called Chichester Police Station and all they could say was umm and ahh.Then said the officer would call me when on his next shift(they never do)and when i gave them my number they asked where it was,so i told them France,it went very quite and said he will call later.

Selseybill wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 15:55:

Called Chichester Police Station and all they could say was umm and ahh.Then said the officer would call me when on his next shift(they never do)and when i gave them my number they asked where it was,so i told them France,it went very quite and said he will call later.

May not have been wise to bring their "cockup" to their attention at this stage :-?

If he was speeding and didn't notice them then he should take it on the chin and treat it as a lesson learned!

Marks DTM Calib wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 16:07:

If he was speeding and didn't notice them then he should take it on the chin and treat it as a lesson learned!

I'd agree - if you go to court, and the magistrates think you're trying to get off when guilty, you might get more points/fine than an endorsable ticket would give you  ::)

JamesV6CDX wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 16:08:

Marks DTM Calib wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 16:07: If he was speeding and didn't notice them then he should take it on the chin and treat it as a lesson learned! I'd agree - if you go to court, and the magistrates think you're trying to get off when guilty, you might get more points/fine than an endorsable ticket would give you  ::)

If you get off on a technicality then its the policemans fault for not doing his job correctly ::)

Agree but as he had just exited a roundabout that i know you can't go around faster that 20mph due to the tight angle of the exit and with 3 punters in the car who gave him a good tip for a comfortable ride after.If he was going fast at this roundabout he would have ended on a central bollard,even the office stated this.Also the sat nav bleeps when going over the  speed limit.But if the police can't get their own paperwork right who's to say they can't get the speed right.
Can't say if he was speeding or not but shouldn't the location be a road name not a area 5 miles down the road

I'd fight it mate, think you may have a case, he may be in the wrong yes but if he can get off with it then go for it  :y

It's like me giving you a ticket for speeding but stating the location was Scotland when you were in Wales

Selseybill wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 16:20:

It's like me giving you a ticket for speeding but stating the location was Scotland when you were in Wales

Yes but, if I WAS speeding and I knew dam well I was plus I had not noticed that I was being followed for so long (hence why the roundabout could well be irrelivant) then as far as I would be concerned, is a fair cop and not worth the hassel of going to court over.

I would actualy be quite chuffed with being caught by a real person an not a talivan or stationary camera  ;D

Have a look see on here  http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/procedure/notice_of_intended_prosecution.htm

You may find some info :)

Cheers Pete.Everything i have read has no mention about the location has to be correct.I think i will contact my lawyer tomorrow to see if the incorrect details have invalidated the NIP 

How it works up here, north of Hadrians Wall.   ;)

The ticket is simply that.  Just the ticket.  Its the means to pay a fixed penalty rather than appear personally in Court at a later date.

The NIP, if he was stopped and spoken to by Officers, is verbally administered.

If the ticket is unpaid then a copy complaint will be subsequently issued by the Procurator Fiscal (CPS in England?) and will again offer the ability to pay a fixed penalty.  If unpaid, a summons for Court will subsequently be forthcoming.

Have seen where an accused kept their powder dry as regards the incorrect locus being stated on a ticket and the copy complaint for appearance at Court, only revealing the error as a 'defence' in court and at trial.

The Fiscal moved for a brief adjournment and an ammended complaint was served to accused and the case reopened.  Found guilty after trial by the Sheriff. (We have them here instead of Magistrates...)

Best hope is that the ticket is bounced by the Police before all this unfolds but, in all honestly, I think I would be asking myself.... 

Was he speeding or not????

Upto him, ultimately.   :)

Tonnes of locus down here this time of year but no cowboys.
Bloody hell,shock,just had the officer call me and he said" i see the mistake on the location but am from Chichester stn not Bognor(4 miles away) and no sure of all the road names" i replied all Chichester cars have TOMTOM's fitted,not working, A to Z ?.Anyway he said he will pass the ticket to his superintendent pointing out his error and will get back to me. He thinks he is talking to my son but am in France and he called me via my French landline.Thick comes to mind and he's not blonde.

Selseybill wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:25:

he said he will pass the ticket to his superintendent pointing out his error

Was this a PC?

If so - I cannot see him going directly to the super over a speeding ticket query!!!

You might get a result after all but, that said, when I was writing tickets for a living my locus on the ticket would be, for example, the M90 Perth to Edinburgh road.

If it went to the Police report stage (ticket unpaid and notification to Fiscal) it would thereafter be, on that report, the M90 Perth to Edinburgh Road from a part nearto Kelty overbridge to a part nearto Rosyth junction.

Point being, the ticket is the original opportunity to pay.  The copy complaint is the intermediate opportunity, trial is the ultimate.  At all stages, mistakes can be overcome by correct process. 

As I said previously, best result from your lads perspective is that the Police bin the ticket but, up here certainly, it would require substantially more than a wee mistake with the wording of the locus on the ticket.....

JamesV6CDX wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:37:

Selseybill wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:25: he said he will pass the ticket to his superintendent pointing out his error  Was this a PC? If so - I cannot see him going directly to the super over a speeding ticket query!!!

Nor I, but his stripey would be in on it somewhere....  ;)

JamesV6CDX wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:37:

Selseybill wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:25: he said he will pass the ticket to his superintendent pointing out his error  Was this a PC? If so - I cannot see him going directly to the super over a speeding ticket query!!!

No he was a traffic Sargent.Chichester's a bit funny even the super walks the streets.

hotel21 wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:40:

You might get a result after all but, that said, when I was writing tickets for a living my locus on the ticket would be, for example, the M90 Perth to Edinburgh road. If it went to the Police report stage (ticket unpaid and notification to Fiscal) it would thereafter be, on that report, the M90 Perth to Edinburgh Road from a part nearto Kelty overbridge to a part nearto Rosyth junction. Point being, the ticket is the original opportunity to pay.  The copy complaint is the intermediate opportunity, trial is the ultimate.  At all stages, mistakes can be overcome by correct process.  As I said previously, best result from your lads perspective is that the Police bin the ticket but, up here certainly, it would require substantially more than a wee mistake with the wording of the locus on the ticket.....

I agree with you but you mention the word" ROAD" that's the part missing.

Question......you mention tips in the original post....is he a taxi driver?

If so and he was speeding, he deserves all he gets

Selseybill wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:44:

hotel21 wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:40: You might get a result after all but, that said, when I was writing tickets for a living my locus on the ticket would be, for example, the M90 Perth to Edinburgh road. If it went to the Police report stage (ticket unpaid and notification to Fiscal) it would thereafter be, on that report, the M90 Perth to Edinburgh Road from a part nearto Kelty overbridge to a part nearto Rosyth junction. Point being, the ticket is the original opportunity to pay.  The copy complaint is the intermediate opportunity, trial is the ultimate.  At all stages, mistakes can be overcome by correct process.  As I said previously, best result from your lads perspective is that the Police bin the ticket but, up here certainly, it would require substantially more than a wee mistake with the wording of the locus on the ticket..... I agree with you but you mention the word" ROAD" that's the part missing.

In all honesty, thats neither here nor there. Its could just as easily be the B12345 Somewhere to Nowhere....

Yes he's a taxi driver and he was clocked by a tight exit from a roundabout,to get up to 40 odd he would have to hammered it within 300 mts.They said he wasn't speeding before this and in about 200 mtrs from where the 50 mph starts.The rain was chucking it down last night and the road had quite a lot of standing water.By son's not a boy racer,never been stopped for speeding or even killed a fly before this.

What is the exact speed as written on the ticket please?  e.g. 44 mph, 42 to 44 mph, 44.56 mph or whatever....

Selseybill wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:43:

No he was a traffic Sargent.Chichester's a bit funny even the super walks the streets.

Ok - even being a skipper, I still can't see him missing out inspector / chief inspector, over a speeding ticket issue.

I would also imagine (and like to think) that a traffic Sergant would be able to sort out a fixed penalty issue without needing to refer it much higher...



Selseybill wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:43:

Chichester's a bit funny even the super walks the streets.

Gloucestershire's Deputy Chief Constable was on foot patrol in a park, the other day, to combat antisocial behaviour   :-?

I must point out this wasn't in the omega but in a 12 year old London style TX1 auto taxi that only has a top speed of 75mph.0 to 30 takes about a 30 mins.

hotel21 wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 20:00:

What is the exact speed as written on the ticket please?  e.g. 44 mph, 42 to 44 mph, 44.56 mph or whatever....

44mph

Selseybill wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 20:04:

hotel21 wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 20:00: What is the exact speed as written on the ticket please?  e.g. 44 mph, 42 to 44 mph, 44.56 mph or whatever.... 44mph

That implies that the speed was recorded by means of a hand held device rather than tracking (following the vehicle, eg 42-44 over 3/10ths of a mile) or by vascar (44.56 mph average over a distance of xx).

He may well have been 'nicked' at a somewhat different location to where he was stopped, given that the PC would be out of the vehicle and standing (if following the guidelines correctly) then getting into his/her vehicle and thereafter catching up....

Personally I'd just put my hands up and take the fine/points... I know I'm not an angel and I do speed sometimes (NOT in built up areas normally but have the occasional lapse ::) ::))

Unless it's the critical points which would put me over the 12, in which case I'd fight it just for the chance to keep my license :y :y

Just me personally, and what I did several years ago when stopped in Worthing :y :y

Bill, is there some hidden agenda as to why he needs to get off e.g. already got a load of points, loss of job etc?

The hassle of going to court, involving scum lawyers etc is just not worth it for 60 quid and 3 points when in reality, he was probably in the wrong?

Marks DTM Calib wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 20:23:

Bill, is there some hidden agenda as to why he needs to get off e.g. already got a load of points, loss of job etc? The hassle of going to court, involving scum lawyers etc is just not worth it for 60 quid and 3 points when in reality, he was probably in the wrong?

3 Points which, in reality, make no difference to Hire companies or most insurers.... I wouldn't bother :y :y

In summation, heres my take on it.

Your son was detected driving at 44 mph at someplace by means of a hand held device - radaror laser, whatever, in his taxicab.

Cop(s) got into their vehicle and stopped him some distance away at some other town, hence the following him for a mile and a half bit....

Ticket reads as the location of him speeding, not where he was stopped.

Whether the location on the ticket is exact to the n'th degree is, in the greater scheme of things, probably somewhat immaterial but is worth some consideration if the three points are extremely important to him.

personal experience - Taxi drivers always got some (speeding) leeway from me (and others) when they were getting the drunks away home in the early hours but as long as they did not take the mickey by not paying attention.  the police cars are quite obvious these days by their reflective markings.  If he cannot see one of them, what chance does he have of seeing a drunk staggerring up the road in dark clothing??


Quote:

The rain was chucking it down last night and the road had quite a lot of standing water.By son's not a boy racer,never been stopped for speeding or even killed a fly before this.

I suspect that perhaps Dad is getting sons somewhat distilled version of reality, both as regards the stop in question and as to whether he has NEVER broken the speed limit before...   ;)

Lazydocker wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 20:19:

Personally I'd just put my hands up and take the fine/points... I know I'm not an angel and I do speed sometimes (NOT in built up areas normally but have the occasional lapse ::) ::))

I doubt for one minute there is one single driver that can honestly stand up and say they have never exceeded a posted speed limit.

Selseybill wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:43:

JamesV6CDX wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:37: Selseybill wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 19:25: he said he will pass the ticket to his superintendent pointing out his error  Was this a PC? If so - I cannot see him going directly to the super over a speeding ticket query!!! No he was a traffic Sargent.Chichester's a bit funny even the super walks the streets.

Bloody hell! where I am, the only things that walk the streets at that time are stray dogs, wolves, and 'ladies of the night', (in no particular order of seniority). You NEVER see a copper police constable on foot EVER at night, & rarely in daylight for that matter. As for Supers & above, I don't think they know their way out of the nick other than via the garage gate :D :D ::). BTW, sod to taking it on the chin, if he can get off on a 'technicality', then good for him. If the Law can't get it right, why should we give them any leeway? ;) :y

Marks DTM Calib wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 20:23:

Bill, is there some hidden agenda as to why he needs to get off e.g. already got a load of points, loss of job etc? The hassle of going to court, involving scum lawyers etc is just not worth it for 60 quid and 3 points when in reality, he was probably in the wrong?

There is no so called hidden agenda.
He doesn't mind paying £60 if he was speeding but it's turns out this part of the road is in a 50mph limit.
He has never had points on his licence and as he works for me,i would not sack him for 3 points.

I have contacted our lawyer this morning who has confirmed(as he travels this road where my son was stopped everyday) the road has a 50 mph limit not a 30 or 40mph.
Also confirmed by the Sussex highways office.
As for lack of wrong location the Chief Inspector Kim Hudson at Chichester whom i know very well has confirmed the ticket must have the exact road,junction or something to identify the point of the stop not a area 3-5 miles down the road hence making the ticket null and void as there is no way to confirm what speed limit was in force at the time of stopping . He also stated the courts would throw the case out due to this fact and also agreed the road has a 50 mph limit. So by doing 44mph in a 50mph limit there is no case. 

hotel21 wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 20:53:

i suspect that perhaps Dad is getting sons somewhat distilled version of reality, both as regards the stop in question and as to whether he has NEVER broken the speed limit before...   ;)

The police car was unmarked and did not stand out from a normal car following him.at 03:30 there is a lot cabs saloon and taxi style using this road so a normal car does not stand out as something different.He knew there was other cars behind him but not a police car.So his eye sight does not come into question. 
As for speeding we all do it now and then,am proof i had 9 points at one stage.

As my previous post states it has been confirmed by the police,Sussex highways and lawyer the road has a 50 mph limit not 30mph as stated by the officer that stopped him.

Certainly got your teeth into this one Bill. Hope you get the right result.

Lawyer was saying if the ticket isn't quashed,he will go to court and claim for this and that but we have informed him as long as the ticket is quashed and the officer has had a talking too we would be happy.The lawyer for some unknown reason has no time for the local police.
Chief inspector is due to call us by 17:00 to let us know what is happening.

I hope all comes good for your son.
Only your son knows if he was speeding, lets hope he & all who have read this thread takes some notes. It's someting we have ALL done at some point.
I just like to see the government NOT getting £60.00 for a change ;D

I am still baffled by Chief Inspectors getting involved in a little ticket query, especially one that's been issued by a trafpol Sarge!

JamesV6CDX wrote on 30. Nov 2009 at 15:48:

I am still baffled by Chief Inspectors getting involved in a little ticket query, especially one that's been issued by a trafpol Sarge!

Chief inspector is a good family friend and i do a lot of work with him in Chichester(benefits of having father who is a ex inspector & and eldest son in Hampshire force).
He takes all complaints against his force very personal and likes to sort them out asap.
It's not what you know it's who you know.

Possibly because one of their underlings has quite possibly just done something which is tantamount to perverting the course of justice ? ;)
Interestingly if the OP had taken the advice of some people to just "take it on the chin"his son would now be paying a fine and having his clean record tarnished,when in fact it looks like he commited no offence at all,and the officer doesnt even know the speed limits in his own patch,or worse,he does know but wanted  easy brownie points or whatever.
I have had this happen to me in my forst few months on the road.I was stopped for having a tail light bulb out ,but at the end of the conversation with the 2 officers the older seargant informed me that he was doing me for driving at 20mph above the limit.I told him that I eas driving in thick fog for the first time,was pretty nervous due to the conditions and there was no way on gods earth that I was doing anything like the speed he claimed.He informed me that I could argue all night long ,but the word of 2 police officers against mine would be what counted in court.I had no realistic choice but to plead guilty.
Since then,if they dont have a watertight case,I will use any technicality to get myself off if possible. ;)

Selseybill wrote on 30. Nov 2009 at 14:35:

hotel21 wrote on 29. Nov 2009 at 20:53: i suspect that perhaps Dad is getting sons somewhat distilled version of reality, both as regards the stop in question and as to whether he has NEVER broken the speed limit before...   ;) The police car was unmarked and did not stand out from a normal car following him.at 03:30 there is a lot cabs saloon and taxi style using this road so a normal car does not stand out as something different.He knew there was other cars behind him but not a police car.So his eye sight does not come into question.  As for speeding we all do it now and then,am proof i had 9 points at one stage. As my previous post states it has been confirmed by the police,Sussex highways and lawyer the road has a 50 mph limit not 30mph as stated by the officer that stopped him.

Quote:

Lawyer was saying if the ticket isn't quashed,he will go to court and claim for this and that but we have informed him as long as the ticket is quashed and the officer has had a talking too we would be happy.The lawyer for some unknown reason has no time for the local police. Chief inspector is due to call us by 17:00 to let us know what is happening.

Bill, you asked for advice and I and others attempted to pass some onto you.

Fair enough if it was an unmarked car.  Point I was attempting to make was that the Officers, if using the kit correctly and as per ACPO guidelines, should be standing out the vehicle and not operating it from within.  If they were in uniform then reflective jackets would be required - elf and safety - so perhaps eysesight may play a part?  Not so, if they were sitting in the car and jackets off, pointing the hairdryer out the window, then thats a different route of defence....  ;)

You say the road had a 50 limit as confirmed by the highway authority and others, yet your original post intimated otherwise?


Quote:

there is no mention of road names only near by towns on the ticket and as with the lack of lamp posts and speed signs(nearest is 2 mile away) .The road goes from 40mph to 30mph then to 50mph

I maintain that the locus written on the ticket is the place of offence, not where son was stopped.  The details on the ticket may be sketchy/limited but the officer(s) should have made it clear where the offence took place.

As said previously, the NIP is verbally administered and, up here at least, includes the locus so that the driver is in no doubt.

Selseybill wrote on 30. Nov 2009 at 14:35:

As my previous post states it has been confirmed by the police,Sussex highways and lawyer the road has a 50 mph limit not 30mph as stated by the officer that stopped him.

In that case, it's "cut & dried" for your son.....and make sure you screw the f**kers for every single last penny you can think of if they insist on putting it before a court of law.

Selseybill wrote on 30. Nov 2009 at 16:03:

Chief inspector is a good family friend and i do a lot of work with him

Therefore, he shouldn't go anywhere near your ticket query with a bargepole!


Selseybill wrote on 30. Nov 2009 at 16:03:

It's not what you know it's who you know.

If he intervenes in the ticket, it is a glaringly obvious conflict of interest on his part, professional standards would have a field day with him...

Thank you for all the advise,some i may have read somebut after reading follow up posts i can see why some where coming from. but thanks to everyone.
Had call last night asking my son to come down the station,The chief inspector passed the complaint to the traffic inspector who sat down with my boy over a cuppa asking him if he thought he was speeding which the reply was "i don't think i was" anyway after a hour the inspector said he was willing to quash the ticket as the officer did not fill the location in correct and they could have trouble gaining a prosecution in court as speed limits could not be identified  from the ticket.Just stating Littlehampton is a joke,His words.
He did say he thinks my son was just within the 50mph limit when stopped from the officers description of the road.He will receive a letter to confirm this.
The inspector confirmed any ticket given out must provide the exact location or details that identifies the place of a afence.He also said many people do not check the details on tickets and just pay up.   

Selseybill wrote on 01. Dec 2009 at 17:15:

Thank you for all the advise,some i may have read somebut after reading follow up posts i can see why some where coming from. but thanks to everyone. Had call last night asking my son to come down the station,The chief inspector passed the complaint to the traffic inspector who sat down with my boy over a cuppa asking him if he thought he was speeding which the reply was "i don't think i was" anyway after a hour the inspector said he was willing to quash the ticket as the officer did not fill the location in correct and they could have trouble gaining a prosecution in court as speed limits could not be identified  from the ticket.Just stating Littlehampton is a joke,His words. He did say he thinks my son was just within the 50mph limit when stopped from the officers description of the road.He will receive a letter to confirm this. The inspector confirmed any ticket given out must provide the exact location or details that identifies the place of a afence.He also said many people do not check the details on tickets and just pay up.

To be honest Bill, the only reason the Chief Inspector is offering to let go is becaquse he knows he's in the wrong (or rather, his boys are).

The guy is NOT doing your son any favours, and the fact the Chief Inspector has invited your lad for a cup of coffee and a chat means he's on a damage limitation exercise.

I'd personally be compiling the compensation invoice that means I don't have to work for the next year if I was in his shoes, but I'm suspecting (from what you have already said) that your lad isn't as ruthless as some of us.

Something doesn't ring right about this whole thing....