Omega Owners Forum - Which Tyres?

chrisgixer

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Re: Which Tyres?
Reply #45 - 22. Apr 2011 at 22:50

Lazydocker wrote on 22. Apr 2011 at 22:32:

chrisgixer wrote on 22. Apr 2011 at 22:17:

So what's the best way go manage it? Rotate the fronts to the back half way through, and then replace all 4?

Or, keep the fronts as new as possible and put the old fronts on the rear, or just bin the fronts?

Errm.... By the time I've "played" a little all 4 need doing about the same time normally Roll Eyes

So would you say it's worth rotating tyres half worn to minimize any effect on handling, or would that introduce more oddness?

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Lazydocker

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Re: Which Tyres?
Reply #46 - 22. Apr 2011 at 22:53

chrisgixer wrote on 22. Apr 2011 at 22:50:

Lazydocker wrote on 22. Apr 2011 at 22:32:

chrisgixer wrote on 22. Apr 2011 at 22:17:

So what's the best way go manage it? Rotate the fronts to the back half way through, and then replace all 4?

Or, keep the fronts as new as possible and put the old fronts on the rear, or just bin the fronts?

Errm.... By the time I've "played" a little all 4 need doing about the same time normally Roll Eyes

So would you say it's worth rotating tyres half worn to minimize any effect on handling, or would that introduce more oddness?

I never bother TBH... I think it could just introduce another unknown in that the wear would be wrong for that axle Undecided

Anyway, as we know, once the abnormal wear has started it will continue through the life of the tyre anyway Wink

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cem

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Re: Which Tyres?
Reply #47 - 22. Apr 2011 at 23:01

twiglet wrote on 14. Apr 2011 at 20:16:

cem wrote on 14. Apr 2011 at 20:08:

Kevin Wood wrote on 14. Apr 2011 at 15:06:

chrisgixer wrote on 14. Apr 2011 at 00:59:

As we have discussed before, I think the differences are based on what people expect from a tyre. But don't always specify those expectations when asking the question "wants the best tyre?" ...

Agreed. Other points to bear in mind are that tyre recommendations depend on the driver too, and are therefore not worth listening to unless you know that driver has similar expectation to yourself. Many (perhaps most?) drivers will never approach the limits of the tyre's grip in any conditions, so might rate a tyre as Ok when in fact the level of grip is rubbish.

Car type and condition comes into it as well. You won't tell the difference between a good and a bad tyre if you've got shot wishbone bushes and a 200k car on original suspension components. Wink

Kevin

agreed.. so the only trustable source is tire tests..

To a point yes, but as people have said a tyre can work very well on one car, and be awful on another. Unless the tyre test has been completed on a specific model of car, I don't think they are alot of use in the real world. Undecided

nope.. can you calculate cars x tires product .. thats definitely unnecesary.. even by comparing them on a single car you will have measured units in your hand which will give info enough to compare..

and a tire grippy , succeeding in tests wont decide to behave different unless you have geometry problems or the test maker try to change results !!

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« Last Edit: 22. Apr 2011 at 23:04 by cem »

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chrisgixer

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Re: Which Tyres?
Reply #48 - 22. Apr 2011 at 23:58

Lazydocker wrote on 22. Apr 2011 at 22:53:

chrisgixer wrote on 22. Apr 2011 at 22:50:

Lazydocker wrote on 22. Apr 2011 at 22:32:

chrisgixer wrote on 22. Apr 2011 at 22:17:

So what's the best way go manage it? Rotate the fronts to the back half way through, and then replace all 4?

Or, keep the fronts as new as possible and put the old fronts on the rear, or just bin the fronts?

Errm.... By the time I've "played" a little all 4 need doing about the same time normally Roll Eyes

So would you say it's worth rotating tyres half worn to minimize any effect on handling, or would that introduce more oddness?

I never bother TBH... I think it could just introduce another unknown in that the wear would be wrong for that axle Undecided

Anyway, as we know, once the abnormal wear has started it will continue through the life of the tyre anyway Wink

True, if left on the same axle.

Anyone bothered swapping?

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cem Omega King Offline Posts: 13920 Ankara/Turkey Gender: Drives: 97 2.5 V6 Manual CD- Clio Sport	Re: Which Tyres? Reply #49 - 23. Apr 2011 at 08:19 a very trustable tire shop said they must be swapped every 10K kms in order to get the best from them.. however I'm fed up with the scratched wheels so I'll sacrifice the tires earlier
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Mr Gav

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Re: Which Tyres?
Reply #50 - 23. Apr 2011 at 15:27

cem wrote on 23. Apr 2011 at 08:19:

a very trustable tire shop said they must be swapped every 10K kms Shocked

in order to get the best from them..

I remember EVO magazine doing a test in 2009 and they took all the tyres with them to France where they did the test, while they were there they bought an identical set of a particular tyres but had been sat on the shelf for about 6 months. They had lost something like 5-10% grip just due to age in only six months Shocked

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chrisgixer

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Re: Which Tyres?
Reply #51 - 24. Apr 2011 at 00:16

Mr Gav wrote on 23. Apr 2011 at 15:27:

cem wrote on 23. Apr 2011 at 08:19:

a very trustable tire shop said they must be swapped every 10K kms Shocked

in order to get the best from them..

I remember EVO magazine doing a test in 2009 and they took all the tyres with them to France where they did the test, while they were there they bought an identical set of a particular tyres but had been sat on the shelf for about 6 months. They had lost something like 5-10% grip just due to age in only six months Shocked

That's a very good point, all tyres have a date stamp, something like 3-11 iirc, 3rd month of 2011 depending. Although I 've only ever seen it on bike tyres tbh.... Undecided

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TheBoy

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Re: Which Tyres?
Reply #52 - 24. Apr 2011 at 09:40

chrisgixer wrote on 22. Apr 2011 at 12:18:

Tread depth is an interesting part of it as said. How the tyre behaves as they wear over the last part of it's life is equally important as the start, and IMO is why nobody should form an opinion of a tyre until they are worn out.

My theory as to why, trailing arm suspension on the back works quite differently to mcphearson strut suspension on the front, camber seems to deflect a lot more on the front than the back because of these two designs. Add in the job of steering on the front only, and power driving the rear only, all conspire to wear the tyres in very different ways. Fronts loose the edges first and give a rounder profile, where as rears wear the middles flat as if over inflated giving the exact opposite profile.

Why is this relevant to tyre choice? Not all tyres behave the same under such wear, some handle it better than others possibly due to construction. And has been a major lesson learned in my much bemoaned Falken disaster. When new they where ok in the stability dept, not good, but merely ok! Still thought the wishbone bushes where buggered tbh but they point is they are a less stable tyre generally.
So add in the tyre wear characteristics of the car previously mentioned, in my case Elite suspension which is soft which will allow camber angles to deflect even more exaggerating that wear difference front to back, and an enthusiastic driving style pushing the suspension movement and hence camber deflection further still, and the end result for a tyre can mean binning them with 3 or 4 mill of tread left as the car simply will not go in a straight line.

Don't get me wrong falkens are not the only tyres to reach their level of poor handling(comparatively speaking of course), ask TB after his " something's broken, as if disconnected" concerns before changing tyres and the problem vanished. The point is at what stage do they reach this unusable level and they just have to be changed because they bother drives so badly?

From my experience, I would suggest, once again, the tyre wear and resulting handling degradation to be totally unacceptable on Falkens ESP the 912... But then I really should say similar of the suspension as well, and admit, bought the wrong tyre. Cry

I don't normally take my tyres down to the legal limit, but the lack of availability of my beloved SP9000 and trouble making up my mind in finding a suitable successor, meant it happened.

You drove it after rear bushes were done, and again when 'something was broken' episode, and the tyres had fallen off a cliff. Suddenly. Fortunately, your experience with the Falkens that I refused to drive after a couple of miles at Asheridge, you were able to say it was just the tyres had exceeded a certain point in their life.

I believe you and I don't have dissimilar driving styles most of the time, so as you rightly say, a tyre that suits us is unlikely to suit people like tunnie, for example. I must say, I *really* hate those michelin on the Elite, they are bloody awful from a grip point of view, but I am sure that a Sunday afternoon old duffer would love them? Though, no matter how spirited your style is, surely the one thing you must have from a tyre is grip?

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TheBoy

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Re: Which Tyres?
Reply #53 - 24. Apr 2011 at 09:43

chrisgixer wrote on 24. Apr 2011 at 00:16:

Mr Gav wrote on 23. Apr 2011 at 15:27:

cem wrote on 23. Apr 2011 at 08:19:

a very trustable tire shop said they must be swapped every 10K kms Shocked

in order to get the best from them..

I remember EVO magazine doing a test in 2009 and they took all the tyres with them to France where they did the test, while they were there they bought an identical set of a particular tyres but had been sat on the shelf for about 6 months. They had lost something like 5-10% grip just due to age in only six months Shocked

That's a very good point, all tyres have a date stamp, something like 3-11 iirc, 3rd month of 2011 depending. Although I 've only ever seen it on bike tyres tbh.... Undecided

On cars, its generally like 1103 - 2011, week 03

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« Last Edit: 24. Apr 2011 at 09:43 by TheBoy »

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Re: Which Tyres?
Reply #54 - 24. Apr 2011 at 09:47

I tend to rotate tyres on FWD, in order to always keep the best/newest tyres on rear.

Why?

In FWD, understeer is easier to deal with than oversteer. Also, ensures that the rears (which would easily last several years), don't go out of date (tyres have a 5yr life).

On my Omegas, I tend not to bother. WIM see my car often enough to keep the wear even, and wear rate is approx the same front and rear, and they tend to have 4 tyres at a time, which always helps maintain its balance

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chrisgixer

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Black ones are faster.

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Re: Which Tyres?
Reply #55 - 24. Apr 2011 at 15:01

TheBoy wrote on 24. Apr 2011 at 09:40:

chrisgixer wrote on 22. Apr 2011 at 12:18:

Tread depth is an interesting part of it as said. How the tyre behaves as they wear over the last part of it's life is equally important as the start, and IMO is why nobody should form an opinion of a tyre until they are worn out.

My theory as to why, trailing arm suspension on the back works quite differently to mcphearson strut suspension on the front, camber seems to deflect a lot more on the front than the back because of these two designs. Add in the job of steering on the front only, and power driving the rear only, all conspire to wear the tyres in very different ways. Fronts loose the edges first and give a rounder profile, where as rears wear the middles flat as if over inflated giving the exact opposite profile.

Why is this relevant to tyre choice? Not all tyres behave the same under such wear, some handle it better than others possibly due to construction. And has been a major lesson learned in my much bemoaned Falken disaster. When new they where ok in the stability dept, not good, but merely ok! Still thought the wishbone bushes where buggered tbh but they point is they are a less stable tyre generally.
So add in the tyre wear characteristics of the car previously mentioned, in my case Elite suspension which is soft which will allow camber angles to deflect even more exaggerating that wear difference front to back, and an enthusiastic driving style pushing the suspension movement and hence camber deflection further still, and the end result for a tyre can mean binning them with 3 or 4 mill of tread left as the car simply will not go in a straight line.

Don't get me wrong falkens are not the only tyres to reach their level of poor handling(comparatively speaking of course), ask TB after his " something's broken, as if disconnected" concerns before changing tyres and the problem vanished. The point is at what stage do they reach this unusable level and they just have to be changed because they bother drives so badly?

From my experience, I would suggest, once again, the tyre wear and resulting handling degradation to be totally unacceptable on Falkens ESP the 912... But then I really should say similar of the suspension as well, and admit, bought the wrong tyre. Cry

I don't normally take my tyres down to the legal limit, but the lack of availability of my beloved SP9000 and trouble making up my mind in finding a suitable successor, meant it happened.

You drove it after rear bushes were done, and again when 'something was broken' episode, and the tyres had fallen off a cliff. Suddenly. Fortunately, your experience with the Falkens that I refused to drive after a couple of miles at Asheridge, you were able to say it was just the tyres had exceeded a certain point in their life.

I believe you and I don't have dissimilar driving styles most of the time, so as you rightly say, a tyre that suits us is unlikely to suit people like tunnie, for example. I must say, I *really* hate those michelin on the Elite, they are bloody awful from a grip point of view, but I am sure that a Sunday afternoon old duffer would love them? Though, no matter how spirited your style is, surely the one thing you must have from a tyre is grip?

On your Dunlops, that point is at an acceptable level of wear, on the Falkens(912) that point of unacceptability was reached with 3/4mill of tread left. Now given that Falkens are cheaper than Dunlops, that makes Falkens a very expensive tyre if they only have a half life. And your michelins( that cost a lot to buy) would be a very cheap tyre, given that they last for bloody ever(35k if driven sensibly) and handle comparatively well to the end of their life.

If you can live without a level of grip that is.... Undecided

. If a driver gets out and pushes the car round corners, and never gets enough speed up to challenge the brakes, then why pay extra(as in cost per mile) for grip that's never used...? I would argue emergency stop. But drivers of that ilk might be more happy to use other objects to slow them down rather than loose a smidge of tyre wear. Lips Sealed

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VXL V6 Omega Lord Offline Posts: 5306 Gender:	Re: Which Tyres? Reply #56 - 24. Apr 2011 at 17:12 There also has to be another consideration IMHO and that's road noise, now if you are only after tyre performance then the road noise doesn't matter but personally I have to say the noise from the SP Sport MAXX on my V6 makes the car noisier to drive than my Diesel which is surely not what a car in the Omega class should be.
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TheBoy

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Re: Which Tyres?
Reply #57 - 24. Apr 2011 at 19:23

VXL V6 wrote on 24. Apr 2011 at 17:12:

There also has to be another consideration IMHO and that's road noise, now if you are only after tyre performance then the road noise doesn't matter but personally I have to say the noise from the SP Sport MAXX on my V6 makes the car noisier to drive than my Diesel which is surely not what a car in the Omega class should be.

What you need is a shitload of knackered lifters to mask the Sport MAXX tyre noise Grin

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chrisgixer Omega King Offline Black ones are faster. Posts: 14570 Wokingham Gender: Drives: "Omega Black" 3.2 Elite. Thanks to Joshwyatt.	Re: Which Tyres? Reply #58 - 24. Apr 2011 at 20:01 Didn't think they where too bad tbh. Noisier than Falkens, ime, but most tyres are, but quieter than potenza, and possibly sc3... Would need to compare though.
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Kevin Wood Global Moderator Admin Team Offline Posts: 20377 Alton, Hampshire Gender: Drives: 3.2 MV6 (LPG), Westfield	Re: Which Tyres? Reply #59 - 25. Apr 2011 at 12:42 chrisgixer wrote on 24. Apr 2011 at 20:01: Didn't think they where too bad tbh. Noisier than Falkens, ime, but most tyres are, but quieter than potenza, and possibly sc3... Would need to compare though. SC3s were a lot quieter than the Sport Maxx I had.
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